Keshav 00:04
Hello, ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of A Done Deal, a podcast where we get unique, relatable perspectives on entrepreneurship and leadership, as seen from the eyes of seasoned entrepreneurs and investors, it is a great pleasure to introduce my guest today, Pieter hack. Peter is an accomplished Dutch entrepreneur who deals primarily in sustainable technologies and is making that difference to climate change. He is a process engineer by training and has an MBA from INSEAD. His entire career has been focused on scaling up and implementing environmental and energy technology. Having been involved with work in the field of electro dialysis. He was one of the early pioneers to recognize and adapt the potential of this technology to produce blue energy, as they call it, by reversing the process. Pieter is a member of the board of the DMEC, which is the Dutch Marine Energy Center, the he's also a member of the board of Wetsus Supervisory Board and the European Center of Excellence for sustainable water technology is a man of many interests, and has a passion for zipping across mountains on his motorcycle. Pieter, welcome to A Done Deal.

Keshav 01:26
Pieter, what's the biggest surprise that you've had or have seen in the in the last few months with COVID and why?

Pieter 01:28
Thank you. Well, it is related to my business, then it was basically a negative surprise and that's to do. How many people really will put the money where the mouth is where this goes to upscaling and implementing sustainable technologies. I think in the Netherlands and Europe, many places, the atmosphere, government contributions on doing an exploit over laboratory research, and applied laboratory research, by the applied there's a lot of subsidies and grants available for that. But when it comes into upscaling demonstration a scale where millions are needed to implement technology to showcase technology, then it seems as nobody's at home and it has been like this already for....

Well, basically, as long as I'm in business. But I thought with the Green Deal, and the urgency for climate change and the introduction of sustainable energy sources and so on that now the types of wood have been burnt, and it would be easier to get funding, especially for the EU and Dutch Government. But it isn't, I not only talk about my own company, REDstack, but also for two other companies that I'm involved and we are both in the face also, in upscaling the technology and all three companies applied for the grant and all three were rejected with a very high note that just not good enough. So that was a negative surprise at least.

Keshav 03:23
Well, with the energy transition that is expected to happen over the next 30 years. You're right, the governments should take a keen participation in research, development, engineering and I would say encouraging new forms of energy and not just new forms of energy but also better ways to improve. Should I say the LCoE of energy. So yes, you are right. The last few months have been difficult. Many of us have never experienced such a type of existential crisis before, especially where the human psyche has been tested and stress tested. COVID-19 has indeed made life difficult for a lot of entrepreneurs and based on your experience, I mean, you've been an entrepreneur for four decades now. Based on your experience having seen various stages of growing businesses, what is your advice to entrepreneurs and founders who are going through difficult times, the last few months?

Pieter 04:39
I wish I could say that I'd rather ask the question on other entrepreneurs. But anyhow, the leading thing is never giving up. But also, stock more in time because all processes will take longer. Basically, the ongoing businesses when you know your colleagues, when you know your staff and your business partners, you can do a lot on zoom and teams meeting and so that works fine. When you have to start up something new, you meet new people, meet new organizations, that is much more difficult to do that.

Okay, you can see your picture video or you hear voice but you don't feel the body language and read between the lines that is for me, very difficult. So that simply takes longer. I wonder the things or two things, basically that help is start in time, it will take more time but also train your video skills. Especially I think Americans are very good in pitching trainings. Bring the message across. I think that's most of the Europeans at least don't have that learning curve yet. They're learning as they should be learning fast because at the moment, the way you do business and I watched myself evolved in American pitching trainings for the last couple of months and I'm certainly not saying that I'm good at it but I absolutely say that I learn lot, improved a lot in bringing a message across. [crosstalk 06:19] will be normal like this and don't might make life more complicated than it already is. Don't complain. Don't be sad. No, this is how we do it.

Keshav 06:32
Yes, as entrepreneurs, as founders, we are often stuck in, I would say the challenge of prioritization, there are hundreds of things to be done and there's always very little time and I think getting that initial team right, is also I think a big virtual trip, should I say, which could make or break the business. Any advice for co-founders about how they should tackle this?

Pieter 07:14
Difficult. If you look a bit of myself, maybe in the past, I was jumping or acting a lot more on my gut feeling and my idea I had it in my mind but even then, I still could feel that my direct business partners, coworkers, were not catching up with me, I was walking too far ahead of the parade. Although I thought I made it clear to them and apparently not good enough. I think that is now even more important because you don't have that personal contact at all. So, business plan, your information memorandum or wherever you want to call it should be ready earlier and it should be more explicit and detailed without being too long story on what you want to do and where you're heading for and so that's write it down and communicate about in that way that that's even more important that it was ever. Yes, I

Keshav 08:19
Yes, I suppose that's the best way to stay aligned with translating your vision.

Pieter 08:24
And not just things, they might have got, they probably have got it because I got it. No, no, that doesn't work.

Keshav 08:31
And of course, managing all the risks as well. That's quite important, especially with not just the financial side of things but also the market now because that seems to be changing. You've been an entrepreneur for several decades now and you've had your fair share of ups and downs and you've seen the balloons and the bus. If you'd go back, let's say 10, 20, 30 years and do things differently. What would that be? And what do you think would have made that difference?

Pieter 09:05
Well, basically, that could be the same as I just saying that should be done now. Communicate about what your plan is, makes it explicit to your direct business partners. And I think I did not do that well enough in the past. But also, maybe, for myself, did not elaborate the business plan into sufficient detail or sufficient long term, maybe thinking too much, well, it will be fine. But the financial consequences the application, who is your client and what's the birth to him? It was more of a gut feeling than on And also the timing. One of the project technologies I was working on in the past was the digestion of municipal solid waste. Once the solid separating waste was being implemented there was this easy biodegradable stuff, the vegetable waste, get your mace stuff and the company I was working for at that time were introducing or developing a digestion system.

So, we're not composting to make compost but digesting to make biogas and compost out of it. We did have a launching customer and the government; the policies were heading into that direction but it was too early the market was new was not even there and we are spending a lot of money in the pilot plant. Okay, we've got some good subsidies and business partners but the timing was not right and I think only years later when we already stopped and then the market developed it a bit different way than we were anticipating. But at least there was a market. Also, the legislation had to be adjusted, adapted to that to make this technology possible and it all took much longer than I ever thought. He said I ever thought. So there were a couple of millions were down the drain. So timing is very important.

Keshav 11:19
Yes. Timing is king.

Pieter 11:21
That is not always fast. That can be also a bit later when the legislation is there or a market is there? You're not ahead of the parade.

Keshav 11:34
Yeah. Have you always been in the Netherlands, Pieter?

Pieter 11:41
I left in the Netherlands always and from north to south to West, but not ever abroad. Although I did travel a lot. I did set up my own company in China in the course of some 15 years, I think I've been there, I went there six times a year for one and a half week. So that should be about 70, 80 trips to China and also, I worked for American company, I go to every month, for three years so that is some 40 jobs in US and then the Europe is almost domestic I would say.

Keshav 12:17
Well, yes. If you've been to both the US and China between 40 to 70 times a year, then yes. Where did you grow up within the Netherlands? What was your childhood like?

Pieter 12:31
Well, I grew up in the very south east between Belgium and German border. Five kilometers to the left, five to the right about the other countries and I grew up in a very poor neighborhood. Mining people of course in the of Netherlands, we have coal mines, where the mining people live. The first migrant workers came in these days of Yugoslavia and Hungary and my father was a general practice of medical doctors over there. My mom was by education, a lawyer. Graduated in theology, and philosophy. But she never worked as a lawyer, she basically run not only the basis of my father in the medical stuff, basically, she saw the whole neighborhood because the people there were good failing people but lack of organizational skills and these kinds of things. So, my mom was taking care of a lot of them.

Keshav 13:32
Okay.

Pieter 13:33
So, basically, from that point of view, I was bit in the spotlight for all my youth. I was the oldest son of the local doctor and though, I think my family was trying to be modest and normal but for whatever reason, I was a bit in the spotlight and I think my parents mainly educated me, train me in a way take care of your own business and try not to depend on others. Organize it well, do it well, Complaining, no.... If you that's the wrong thing. Arrange it yourself.

Keshav 14:15
So, you have been fairly independent, fairly entrepreneurial from your childhood then from your teams, I suppose.

Pieter 14:23
Although I don't know it at that moment before back in hindsight. I said that's the main thing. Try to cover everything and that is relevant to you and make sure you end up in this sombrero spot in society but if you're comfortable and my father never pushed me to be his successor and as a general practice. He gave a freedom to go wherever also for my brothers, do whatever. We feel we should do as long as we were motivated and happy in it and my parents would agree.

Keshav 15:02
Incredible. Did you have any mentors growing up? Did they have any influence over your thinking, your career, your choices?

Pieter 15:15
Not at high school and now maybe one at university that was a professor, the one who developed the anaerobic wastewater treatment technology, the biogas technology out of an industrial wastewater flows that was the company started to work for after my graduation. This guy, he never did it for the money. He wanted to contribute something good to the world, the sustainable wastewater treatment system.

Keshav 15:43
Okay.

Pieter 15:45
And especially my first boss, your, your spark was the owner of the company Park, what are some of the work? I think from a business point of view of upscaling intrapreneurship implementing rollout together with the chief design engineer Schwallier that inspires me a lot and certainly I learned a lot from them.

Pieter 16:17
It was an assembly company when I joined that company in 1984. The company was there evacuating from cattle field silos and biogas plants for manual digestion into industrial wastewater treatment and starting local business only and at the moment, it's having a couple of own companies all over the world and China already rolling out also Brazil in the US with big ups and downs. But only last week, it was announced that this company, the family-owned business was sold to a German investor company for further growth a rollout.

Keshav 17:02
Okay, and I was going to say, going back to, you know, these events do you think continued mentoring or changing mentors? What would you have looked for in, in a mentor back in the day and how has it sort of changed over the next 20-30 years? Was it career advice? Yes, or?

Pieter 17:35
No, but nah, I left university I did pure technical education, process engineering, chemistry, physics. It's nothing on economics, nothing on the legislation kind of things. Nothing on IT, only the traditional process engineering stuff. So, when I stopped work, I knew nothing and remember that what it was it destroys company. After about a year, we got a phone call from Austria from a company who was asking, well, you will be building great plans, can we get a license to do that in our Country and spark and qw looked at what the heck is a license for this guy talking about?

So, we were finding out on the job as we were elaborating and of course, the more than I started to learn myself, the more auto things bumping you a bump into that to never heard about that. Now, I'm 61 at the moment and 62 next month. I also have decided not to get involved in everything and not to try to catch up everything and also some new technologies or parallel businesses are you before? Cause I think I cannot influence it. I look at the politics as long as concerns the green deal, but that's it and many other technologies no, no, no. Well, I'm busy enough at my own thing. Well, I'm not trying to understand everything that gives also some peace of mind. If you accept. I'm not going to do it. Yes. why don't you except that makes life a bit easier.

Keshav 19:36
It is a great strength, self-awareness and essentially understanding what your strengths and weaknesses are? What you like to do, what you don't like to do, and you can always outsource what you don't like for example and focus on your strengths or your interests. Peter, you had

Pieter 19:59
One has got 50 and the Netherlands 50 is in magic and I keep on telling to my classmates from university, although they are all 61 as well, but they still don't understand and so I keep repeating it, when you have your own opinion and you're not even 50 years old, then this cold stubborn kind of thing is when you have exactly the same opinion once, you're past 50. And it's called wisdom of life. It's your same stupid opinion, but that is accepted to have that opinion and listen to other people, but not give too much on how they think about you listen, absorb, but not necessarily have sleepless nights.

Keshav 20:44
Yes, you've spent your entire life on climate change working on sustainable energy. How has the perception changed in the last decade, few decades? How do you look at climate change? That's the thing I was keen to understand, should everyone worry about it in more or less the same fashion or other more people who are powerful or who have more influence on controlling it? What are your thoughts.

Pieter 21:18
Other the high-level politicians so presidents have more influence than I do? I do not focus on climate change alone only. Also take a look at the level of water pollution, or the availability of a good drink of water. Or even the availability of fossil fuels on the long term, or availability of certain nutrients like phosphorus or for the batteries dilutetium this seem to be wherever you ask this seem to be limited amounts available and doesn't matter that much. If that's 10-20 or 100 years to go that you have sufficient stuff to continue using. But there will be an end at a certain moment in time. And then I have a strong belief in the various types of technologies and techniques. And I do not want to give given all my luxury of life and my comfort at home and traveling whatever.

So, I rely on I bet on the all kinds of technologies and systems that we can proceed with, or let's say happy life, and also make life all those better, without giving in on our luxury. So, I want to drive, whatever many hundreds horsepower car, nauseam, motorbike spilling fuel for what type of fuel and the future it should be sustainable fuel, as long as I ever know and then can step on the gas and make a lot of noise and burn some rubber that I'm happy and I'm pretty convinced that this is also possible in the new more sustainable energy technology type of world. But that is upsetting everybody, anybody? Yes?

Keshav 23:08
Well, it's about that difference. And you have been working on futuristic disruptive technologies from the very beginning and you've taken them all the way from they were an idea to commercialization stage and beyond. You're currently working on something called Blue energy. So, could you please tell us a little more about blue energy and where it fits in the overall energy landscape and what would you have done so far?

Pieter 23:42
Okay, nice question. The concept is that we use two different flows of water, one with the high salt content and one with the low salt and then nature says that the salt concentration equalizes homogenizers once mixing, and a bit of energy is released at that moment in time when everything is equalizing and we use so called ion selective membranes to contact the salt water and the freshwater. Another homogenizes ends up being brackish water, which happens anyhow when it overflows into the sea. But we're harvesting this technology as a power. At the moment, we have a pilot plant operating in the north of the Netherlands. Realizing generating power for about a couple of households in the next step is that we go upscaling into off megawatt aside that's for sufficient for a small village.

And at the end of the day, when most of the rivers at this part of the waterfall's initiative is used, it can go up to 10 or 12% of the world power demand that can be harvested in this way. And again, I think that the position in the so-called energy mix in this is yes, it is Only 10 or 12% of the total power demand, but it is full continues as long as the river flows. And when you design the system on the low water, dry some of the better period and still leave sufficient water that the ships and fishes can pass. It still is 10 to 12% of the world power demand, but it still continues. So, all of sustainable technologies like Sino mt are great. No sun, no wind, no power. So, you need storage systems to bridge the dark and quiet periods, which is more than half of the time.

Yes, and its storage systems that because you that costly, especially when you want to go the sustainable green power converted to hydrogen stored hydrogen and then converted back to power when you need it.

Yes, this has an efficiency of no more than one third, and it will not get better to serve energy is lost in the in the conversion.

Yes, and once, you have a full continuous power, like several types of hydro power, or power, from water energy from water, amongst blue energy is a very important one in that you will reduce the need for corrosion of solar systems. And there's also reduce cost. But okay, at the moment. The coal fire systems and all fire systems are bridging that gap because we are a couple of years ahead. The landscape will look different.

Keshav 26:37
Yes, absolutely with new investments going in marine energy and building that ecosystem with new investments going in battery technology and energy storage systems and also building mini grids. I suppose that entire landscape will change in the next five years and grid stack has that first mover advantage. Could you please tell us a little more about REDstack and how it is assisting in achieving local as well as global climate goals as in about the business and what the future plans are on scaling up the business.

Pieter 27:22
Now, I said, we picked up the concept, the idea of the technology at the [inaudible 27:31 Institute for water technology in north of Netherlands. That was the first place where IP three PhDs were put on this topic. And 2004 it was without ever a proof of concept being done with the management of [inaudible 22:47] belief this is going to work. Basically, it is a seawater desalination system and electro dialyzer system, reverse. So, it's the same thing like an electric motor and a dynamic. When you have such a thing and you turn on it a generalized power, or when you put power on it, it starts to rotate, okay, so when you have utilization system, you pull in energy, and salt water, they do the other way around, take the double salt water and the freshwater. It generates energy.

And the very first test was done in 2004 laboratories. And then the performance was lousy compared to the modeling and compare to what should be possible based on chemical and physical calculations of the fusion, this kind of kinetic energy content, these kinds of things. The performance was lousy, and it took until 2011. That the research and the laboratory thought, yes, we make it in the laboratory. We match the power generation, according to what was calculated, postulated in 2004 and then it was the time to really started the company. So, we were at the beginning, we're just following what the researchers were doing and acquire a pattern for [inaudible 29:06] the 2012 is thought to raise the funds and the permits to build a pilot plant and in 2014 it was ready. I know the king from Netherlands, Wilhelm Alexandre for your Highness, aim to do the ribbon cutting ceremony. Of course, we're very honored and proud on that.

Keshav 29:26
Absolutely.

Pieter 29:28
Yeah. But then it turned out the pure water of the laboratory, and the laboratory conditions, and the turbid water with all kinds of algae and Santa zeolites at all stung in the water is an isolate water. That's quite different than that laboratory. Over the first pilot plants was rotting. It was a lousy performance. We're back to square one to solve many other problems then, in the laboratory, and only now since about two Yes, despite our plans is also matching these original calculations from 2004. Yes, profile eater of what we can harvest so much energy. So then now we really were ready for upscaling.

Keshav 30:16
In Britain, I mean, you've gone through so many ups and downs and so many challenges. It must be a, I would say, a feeling of also one of the proudest moments of this entire initiative.

Pieter 30:35
For this business point of view, I think the king came over to do the ribbon cutting ceremony and he stayed one and a half hour with us, which is a very long visit for most of the time, say only 10 or 20 minutes, but I was in a position to get delivered by speech. About 10 minutes face to face to regain.

Keshav 30:55
Right.

Pieter 30:56
And 50 older guesses, this was possible and then on Coronavirus, to have guests, you know, I remember, in 2016 this technology and a company was awarded the title of Dutch national icon by the full board of ministers in the Netherlands.

Keshav 31:17
Incredible.

Pieter 31:18
And that was a happy and proud feeling of being on TV being in the spotlight and got the prize for the Minister of Economic Affairs and the Prime Minister visiting us. So, a lot of recall, you could also call a lot of free publicity.

Keshav 31:37
Yeah, well, I saw it all, it all helps it all helps bring the technology to the fore make it known to the public. And I understand that textbooks which talk about REDstack and the technology now. So that that is seriously impressive. Do you have any collaborations or joint ventures or partnerships with other people, other businesses in the ecosystem? Maybe not in a similar space, but other areas?

Pieter 32:14
Yeah, and it is also very important to have them because what must have more, looking back or looking from a helicopter point of view, when you look at technology development and water and energy businesses, for example, in France, or Germany or England, there is most of the time that very big corporates in the water, energy business are doing innovations on generating these kinds of things. With the Netherlands, the landscape is completely different. It is basically all SMEs trying to do that. Okay, and once you had the knob down to the upscaling and you need significant more capital, well, the SMEs don't have it and then and frozen England the water quality or the national power company that don't mind spending another 30 or 50 or whatever million on it that just increased the price of the product line or what one third of a cent if it fails, as for me it is impossible?

I have to talk I would sell it not my competitors I call it my brothers and arms to upscaling energy technologists doesn't matter if it's in hydrogen business or other sources of energy from water like in a DMEC organization which marine energy center. So, there is always something you can learn and these broad arms kinds of things especially lobby to the government also on top of that and making one face also many detailed looks.

Keshav 33:49
Partnerships are important. Do you have any partnerships with companies in the entire vertical supply chain as well?

Pieter 34:02
We are working on that not signed and sealed and not operational. Although within red satck has two sister company companies to call it that by basically working in the same area. One name I cannot disclose yet because depending on when this is broadcast, it will be only announced after the first of January. That makes the position of the technology developer a key component developer supplier, it makes it stronger. Yes. I once or demonstration project for the upscaling of the half megawatt is getting founded of most being founded. They also have a memorandum of understanding which we have with the big Arcadis group, Dutch American consulting engineer group and water systems.

What protection systems become operational and that will be a big boost because this guy has billion revenue, and they are strong and production systems or whatever flows into the see that there is where we, as a small company, right second benefit a lot from I think your happiness, not just the visibility, but also the connections and the way to go and how to handle a project development how to handle an application for the governmental permit?

Keshav 35:23
Yes,

Pieter 35:24
These guys know what they've done before. Great help to us

Keshav 35:29
Yes, having these partnerships do make that difference and it sort of gives you, I would say, a lot more time to focus on your main business and, and going back to what we were discussing

Pieter 35:43
We are a small company, and I've never built a project of a billion dollars. And so, you're never going to do it. But there are other organizations who are perfectly fit to do so and it's also a bit of trial and error, to find the right one. But they are all talking the same language, although the size differences norms, at least understands each other, and respect each other and then find a common ground to proceed and there's a lot of trial and error and also many negative feedbacks. No, no, it doesn't fit. It isn't suitable. No, not at this time. until you hit the right one.

Keshav 36:24
Yes. How do you manage to think in years, planning months and deliver? You know, in weeks, any secrets?

Pieter 36:38
Don't let yourself get crazy that drive crazy and so the things that have to be stable in your life, I think and then that is one of the things that was not on your question list. You said that before?

Keshav 36:54
Yeah.

Pieter 36:57
It is. How is your private life looking? And I think I'm very happy and grateful to my wife. I told that to the king. When he was listening to my speech that I from she took care of the household and family and she tells me what to do or what not to do in the household situation or raising kids and put out the garbage can and these kinds of things. But I had the peace of mind and the comfort that at home everything was going smoothly and then if it was difficult time in business, or a lot of intercontinental traveling I could do whatever I want. Yes. So that was easier to focus on. Not having the burden of let's say troubles at home.

Keshav 37:48
So, there is a saying Behind every successful man is capable and confident woman so yes....

Keshav 38:55
Okay, wow. I suppose it has something to do with being prepared for exactly being prepared for different situations and making sure that the other person's genuinely taken care of that's incredible. And you also bike a lot better bitter. How did you know that I'll be dope?

Pieter 39:19
As long as... Okay, there's a big difference. I have a bicycle for about 15 years. But only since last year this year. I have a second bicycle.

Keshav 39:31
Right.

Pieter 39:32
The motorbike when I was 15 so 8 years ago. I didn't have more practice small bike like 16-year-old guys would have but I said whenever I grew up for 15 to be 50, I want to have a blue Harley Davidson road King bike and go for on it for have to frost for holiday. Because these days in 1975 when I was age 15 And highway police were riding on a blue Harley Davidson road King, and whatever reason I liked that bike. So, when I was 48, I went to the Harley Davidson dealer and how long is the delivery time of a blue Harley Davidson road King was my only question and then I started to it can drive lessons. Okay, the bike was not only for the car for bike is different. So, at that it was 50 I got this blue, all of the Epson road king and it went to frost on it. Nice, but when I got home from that trip, I put a bike in the garage and lock it. Okay, I've never been so tired. dirt in my whole life. Not just from driving. And also, certainly not from drinking beer these days. I think at that moment the flag on the horizon. Yeah, wasn't there anymore. There was a flame on horizon where to go for 35 years and suddenly I had the flag overhead and what's going to be next? I generate the new flag at the horizon and that is that my last wish only may be fulfilled the day before I die. I don't know what that last wish but this is my last wish. So, I something to wish for something to go for Amanda's nothing left to go for them. Okay, it's good. It's a nice time today.

Keshav 41:31
Fascinating. Okay. I'm fine. So okay, we've now come back from that part of the podcast where it's, it's a rapid fire round represent two options. And you have to choose the one which you prefer more between the two. Okay, here we go. swimming or biking,

Pieter 41:58
Swimming as long as motorbiking. That is absolutely that.

Keshav 42:04
Okay, the next question again is a bit of a bouncer cricket or rugby. Have you heard of it?

Pieter 42:13
Cricket is absolutely boring. Especially the Netherlands team. I don't watch it but that is absolutely better then cricket

Keshav 42:21
Right. Beethoven or Metallica?

Pieter 42:24
Metallica. And that's on the loud side, blues, rock and metal - Metallica, my favorite.

Keshav 42:33
Right. Beach or mountains.

Pieter 42:40
Beach is only good when you said that a large bar sipping a beer but mountain is better for biking, riding and driving

Keshav 42:49
Fair enough. It depends on the day, I suppose. Meditation or sleep,

Pieter 42:56
Sleep.

Keshav 42:58
Book or podcast?

Pieter 43:01
None of them. I never listened to a podcast this my first podcast. In reading I only do business types of tactical reading. But novels or literature. My last book I read was that the last clause of high school was obliged to reach the official stuff.

Keshav 43:23
That was a long time ago them. Okay, thank you. To conclude then, if you could step into my shoes, what would you have asked me? How should I think what would you ask yourself that I don't?

Pieter 43:43
Well, one of the things already we talked about this about the balance between family life but I also think it was a when you have skills or capacities of a gift or talent or whatever you have, use it in to make the local society a bit bigger, better. So, it's only a bit what I do, but I play some sub role and local charity and then a local judge community. Yes, I tried to help people a bit there. So not only keep your talents or skills for yourself, but share at the at no cost with the local community. Okay. Great example that my mom gave me so ever made a dime, although she was a could have been very successful lawyer, which is she efforts on making the local community better. I think it's the moral obligation to do that. I do it the right way. It's not an obligation, just fun also.

Keshav 44:53
Right, very inspiring. That altruistic way of looking at life and I and people around you in general. Very refreshing. Very, very inspiring. Peter. Thank you. Thank you for your time today, Pieter. And I really enjoyed the conversation. And I hope our audience does, too. Well, folks, that's all for today's then today's episode, then. Thank you for listening in and please do subscribe to the podcast on iTunes and Spotify. Signing off. Have a great day.

Pieter 45:30
Thank you, and Merry Christmas, and Happy New Year.

Keshav 45:33
Thank you.